Working In Media Can Decimate Your Life, It's True.
Everybody (else) is perfect...
Gabrielle Korn is one of those friends that you become unabashedly, almost annoyingly proud to have. She’s accomplished but approachable, revolutionary but in a way that you don’t even notice being swept up in her vision.
I often find myself muttering, “Have you seen what my FRIEND Gabrielle has done?” “Yes, but Gabrielle says that if you do this, this happens,” “Have I shown you this photo of Gabrielle wearing a hat?” And she’s, like, really funny. When you see her, you may assume she might be impossibly polished and perfectly cool, and then, in her self-deprecating (deceptively soft) voice, she tells a crude and funny joke about writing something with a butthole, and years later, I still crack up thinking about it.
When I was tasked to rethink the NYLON digital space and expand the staff, I begged to bring Gabrielle on—and for two years, we ran the editorial show over at NYLON…for better or for worse. Under my direction, the digital team was good and fast—until I burned out and Gabrielle took up the reins. Under her direction, however, the digital team became a firebrand of politics, beauty, and radical representation. So when her brand new book, Everybody (Else) Is Perfect: How I Survived Hypocrisy, Beauty, Clicks, and Likes (out Jan. 26), tracked her rise to youngest editor-in-chief of a global publication in almost, uh, ever, I begged her to talk to me about it.
It is a strange thing, seeing yourself immortalized in a book, but perhaps even stranger to do the immortalizing. So, I chatted Gabrielle up on our favorite mode of communication, the GChat, where we spent years doing many plots and hatching several schemes.
Me: GK! Do people still call you that? Was it just me? I refer to you sometimes to other people as GK.
GK: it's definitely my work nickname, forever.
Me: I like it. GeeKay. First question. How did you DARE to write a memoir?
GK: i wrote a series of words. i'm not sure it's technically a memoir in the traditional sense. idk!!!!!
Me: You are kind of right. It's a series of essays that are tied together and less of a, "Sitting with my coffee, reflecting upon my chaise..."
GK: it's less of a "these are the things that happened to me" and more of a "this is an idea and some things that relate"
Me: What parts flowed easily and what parts did you have to squeeze?
GK: the parts about work flowed easiest, because it was stuff i was already talking about all the time. the stuff that was personal felt the hardest because i didn't know how much was too much or too brief. as internet writers we aren't necessarily trained to... elaborate . so anytime i had to expand an idea even after i had already succinctly expressed it felt hard
Me: Right. "We all know what that leads to" forces an editor to be like, "Wait, what does that lead to."
GK: or more like, you have 40k words left
Me: oh god. oh god oh god.
GK: when you're only used to max 2k
Me: And even then...a good Twitter thread that does not make.
So, while your book does not cover a large amount of Time in the Grand Sense, I think you really zero in on an era of media you know I am really fascinated with: The click-based, attention economy. Can you tell me a bit about that in laywoman's terms? And do you think it has, in part, contributed to the vast polarization in our country?
GK: yeah. so i graduated into the click boom economy, i just named it that, do you like it?
Me: yes, new book, please write thank you.
GK: it was immediately after the recession and suddenly digital media was doing well because traffic was monetized and there were WRITING JOBS!!! which had never been something i was aware of. but as it turned out it was less writing and more churning, and the content started to matter less than the traffic. some people might not know that media works like this: the sales team sold a certain number of beauty pageviews to an advertiser. and we were never ever ever going to hit it by the end of the month
so as a solve, we had to do "4 hairstyles for tk hair" for every hair type, as DIY shoots , with like no notice. we all ended up having to model in them too—for time and money's sake.
Me: "just throw another slideshow on Gabrielle's desk!"
GK: just throw 20 more and then the next month i was asked to do "1 editor, TK lipstick colors" for page view purposes. not given a makeup artist or stylist or money . it was me and the photo intern
Me: yay, cool, healthy!
GK: yeah i was a model/dj except instead of model i was a lab rat and instead of dj i was sad
Me: All DJs are sad. what is fascinating to me is how that reflects your own personal journey as a queer woman, someone who is tackling what it meant be "femme". How did literally playing with makeup help/hurt your sense of self?
GK: well i never really identified as femme. feminine yes but femme no. it was honestly fun to play with makeup. idk i loved that part. it felt like getting back to myself. i abandoned makeup when i first came out bc i felt like if i looked too feminine no one knew i was gay and then i was like actually i like makeup more than i care about that
Me: I have a very distinct memory of you explaining to me how beauty is extremely political. From body hair to lipstick and how certain beauty signifiers say things about women.
GK: it's how you communicate your place in the world. how you see it and how the world sees it. our decisions about how we look and how we are perceived can't not be political
Me: What did you learn about wearing lipstick on dates? As someone who "society" "says" isn't "fancy" (specifically at that time)
GK: haha, well… i learned that if you want to make out it gets messy
Me: That is a wonderful lesson, thank you.
GK: just being honest, I also learned that people think you are fancy
Me: i don't think people outside of fashion realize that gay women basically did not exist in a space where being queer was "celebrated." Gay men and fashion are a TROPE. You write so eloquently about how awkward it was to be a lesbian, but do you think it has gotten easier?
GK: thank you. i mean, the first time i worked at refinery i think i was the only editorial lesbian. the second time i was there, seven years later, there was one other…so it's gotten a little better. but like, it's still straight lady land.
Me: and how many gay men?
GK: more than that. but i think there is also a difference between like "fashion" and "fashion media.” i do think fashion itself feels queerer than it used to, but media does not
Me: Wow. Interesting. That reminds me of a line you wrote, and forgive me if I misquote, but something along the lines of, "we are accepting of you, celebrate yourself, but we have to hold ourselves to a higher standard." you were referring to weight, but I think it is applicable. "Be who you are™ but we have to be perfect, straight, and white."
GK: be who you are but also be cute about about it and give me front row, thanks
Me: I'm glad you mentioned this, because I would like to talk about the Politics of the Front Row. You wrote about...discrepancies at a certain company we both worked at about your placement in the front row, what does that matter so much in fashion? Explain to the uninitiated.
GK: yeah. it sounds so ridiculous to try to explain but like, Important People in the front row, and then your importance descends the further back you get. it's like, middle school, and it centers print editors pretty heavily—which is weird considering the digital editors are the ones driving sales and posting the shows to social. But it's about advertisers and like... other personal relationships
Me: *high pitched noises*
GK: i know i feel so anxious just thinking about it but i also definitely like, was brainwashed by it. you feel so smug and happy when you are frow…and then when you're second or further you feel like HUMAN TRASH
Me: I mean it is one of the times in life where you are easily and quantifiably RANKED. Okay, so, let us talk about ME.
GK: please!
LB. We did do NYLON together and I read that part, selfishly, with a fine-toothed comb. There were parts of your book that made me wheeze and hit inanimate objects. I come across as COOL. You make me sound COOL and slightly capitalistic which...is not unfair. But what struck me more was what a LANDMINE you had to walk through.
GK: i remember calling my mom after that first day and saying "i think i've made a terrible mistake." it was SO hard. no one wanted to be our friend. we were so ostracized.
Me: The moment with your boss like, incensed about you "mentioning" maybe you need to be compensated for your responsibilities? Wow. Would you have handled that any differently?
GK: i should have walked out of the office and never returned honestly. can you imagine being so disrespected? it really showed what they thought of me, and i can't believe i took it and apologized.
Me: But, as you point out, that world trains you that without FROW, what are you!?
GK: well, exactly. i don't know what i would have done and i didn't have any money…so it wasn't exactly an option but, i guess i would have formally asked for a number that was less of a jump.
Me: The way you paint that scene: so manic.
GK: SO MANIC. so symbolic of the leadership in general
Me: Well, that same person told me I would be easier to work with if I smiled more, so…
GK: well, did you try it? DID YOU TRY SMILING LEILA
Me: oh, valid point! BUT IT WILL GIVE ME WRINKLES. Talking about leadership. One thing that you do reflect upon but I can say that I have witnessed first hand is the hard work you put into your staff. And, as someone who managed you, I can reflect on what I wish I would have done better. So: What types of advice can you give people who are managing someone who has a different sexual or gender identity? How do you cultivate empathy in the workplace?
GK: yeah this is a great question—so, a few things: one is to make sure that, if possible, there's never someone who is the only one of their identity, i know that is hard. but the second thing and maybe more applicable advice i have is to understand that someone being part of a community does not make them an expert on that community, nor should they be made to be.
If they want to be, great. that is their work, but there was so much assumption i was up against that i was the keeper of all things lesbian knowledge, and that was when it really started to wear me down. and i also think that like, at 23, i was not an expert on anything
Me: The checklist you created is absolutely mind-blowing. I was almost mad that was the first time I have ever seen it. Was it really inspired via a ham-fisted candle email?
GK: yeah the candle email came through while i was writing and i was like OH GOD THERE IT IS. i tried to cover as much ground as possible in a list of ten. i think it's probably imperfect but it's a start
Me: Okay, so, now you are in your 30s, do you have anything left to give to the world?
GK: no, i am dusty and dried up
Me: Your book really made me think about how you were penalized for being too young and then suddenly you are penalized for being too old. Only at 27 are you good.
GK: yeah! and i wish i could have enjoyed 27 more. in hindsight i looked amazing and was really thriving. the reality is, i have never felt better or smarter or more comfortable with myself than i do in my 30s, and i am probably 30 pounds heavier than i was at 27and like i know for a fact i would not get street styled lol.
which as it turns out DOESN'T MATTER TO ANYONE
Me: first of all, you are extremely hot. secondly, IT REALLY DOESN'T. unpack your street style comment:
GK: ok, so with street style…the year that i was in vogue, the ONLY year, was the skinniest i'd ever been. it's not subtle, what they look for. i think it's a lot better now because there are like, plus-size initiatives
Me: in parts, your story sounds luxurious and chic, but I really hope people read the whole story
GK: especially because that's never a lifestyle i aspired to. so it wasn't like, i wanted to access luxury at any cost. it was like, oh god how did this become my life i do not care. the hotels are so pretty though. you don't even realize how beautiful manhattan is until you get to inside the places…and then you realize how dingy your real life is.
Me: that was the best part, for me, was you and I having little snackies. but you know what is better?
GK: literally anything else
Me: being able to enjoy being in your skin and your hair not falling out.
I can't help but think about what we were talking about earlier, regarding willing objectification via the fashion industry. But after your two very difficult stories (about sexual harassment in her book), thinking about unwilling objectification—is there a connection here? like, you are in control of how you are perceived and men can respond violently to it?
GK: i think it is more subconscious than that. it's not something i do intentionally it's just like... how i feel, which is that i do not care what they think and would rather they think nothing…and i can't hide it!
Me: This moment really gobsmacked me: “What we landed on as the common thread here and throughout my life was my staunch refusal to be objectified (her words)." And that refusal leads to some sort of weird confrontation
GK: yeah it's a "mutual triggering.” so like, i refuse to participate in whatever weird dance for approval men expect women to do, and it enrages them! for a long time i felt like i was doing something wrong and everything was my fault. when like, you should be allowed to not participate in your own objectification. but i was getting sexually harassed every second i was outside alone. it was ruining my life, and i was like ok what am i bringing to the table here
Me: have you talked to other women about this? Do they have similar experiences?
GK: yeah i have—especially queer women. the experience of being screamed at by strangers constantly seems specific to being a feminine lesbian though i know that's something every woman experiences
Me: I was going to ask. There must be some sort of violent reaction to someone unwilling to consider you sexually
GK: no it's that they want to consider me sexually and i'm like, can you not? this isn't for you
Me: of course, they don't even know you are a lesbian
GK: right they just know i am boundaried. or, you know, "a bitch"
Me: you are behaving in a way that is 100% legit and expected but can trigger some sort of need to cross a boundary…which should not be your responsibility!
GK: a violent need to express dominance which showed up with our aforementioned boss, as well as lunatics on the street. yes all men!
Me: I am writing this more for the people reading this than for you, but: you are absolutely correct. as your friend, I would absolutely never think of you as "dominant" or "loud" or pick me. but when I think about it, you are one of the least passive people I know.
GK: i think people tend to underestimate me because i am so quiet/ they have no idea that underneath the quiet is a sea of stubbornness, lol
Me: OMG Taurus energy.
GK: i know that astrology is real because i am the most taurus taurus
Me: You talk about advocating for yourself a lot in this book. What was a time that was absolutely terrifying impossible for you to do but you did it anyway?
GK: honestly i think when i quit nylon—though that wasn't really advocating for myself so much as excusing myself
Me: they can be the same, you know.
GK: i made a career around advocating for other people and i never really felt like i got it back…with a few notable exceptions, of course. but overall, i put myself in this position of martyrdom i think. it's like, "activist burnout" is something that people talk about a lot with activism. and i had that but it wasn't activism. it was capitalism.
Me: Wow, Gabrielle. You didn't have to do it to 'em like that. that's heavy.
GK: well!!! it's the truth
Me: But wait: you have left media (to go to Netflix)! How does that feel? To know you are not longer FROW material 😊
GK: AMAZING!!!! i love not getting invites!!! also something that happened after a few weeks was fashion started to look ridiculous
Me: LOLOL
GK: like as soon as i wasn't IN IT i was like omg, this shit is so ugly. who would wear this????? like things i definitely would have worn in another life. it's so expensive and ugly and impractical…and i can't believe we were telling people to BUY IT
Me: So we left off about leaving media. I wanted to ask you: What do you think media needs in order to survive and/or thrive?
GK: okay i have so many thoughts here. here is my big idea (it's free, take it): media execs need to invest in like, recent MBA grads, and get the best brightest youngest mind to come up with a whole new model
ME: HELLO YES, RICH INVESTORS WHO READ MY NEWSLETTER, GABRIELLE WILL MAKE YOU FAMOUS
GK: it's a business problem. the culture of media stems from how bad the business model is…to make it sustainable it's a fix that i do not have the brain for. BUT SOMEONE SHOULD THINK OF IT. the only thing that works with content is a subscriber model, which is why streamers are doing well. but we also know that it doesn't work indefinitely—hence the death of print. so, idk. someone smart needs to get on this; it's an economics issue.
Me: Well, the secondary issue is that subscriptions work when you have a tremendous offering.
GK: sure. and you can't have tremendous offerings if you're only willing to pay people 40K do to the work of twelve people.
Me: In your intro, you write: "I learned the hard way that professional success is not a good indicator of well-being." Why are you lying to me!!? What else is there besides work and tasty snacks?
GK: you can be good at your job and a total mess in real life. i don't know what else there is, but i really hope to find out
so here is a good example. i was moving out of my studio in bedstuy. it was $1400/month and one of my editorial assistants was looking for an apartment. and i was like TAKE MINE PLEASE IT IS SO GOO. i told her about it and she was SHOCKED. she was like, why did i imagine you in a huge beautiful expensive apartment somewhere nice? and i was like, idk because you project all your assumptions about success onto me i guess??? then i was also like, trust me no one who works here makes enough to live somewhere nice and if they do they have a trust fund…or a HUSBAND.
this is why i'm a bad boss
Me: I think this is why you are a good boss!
GK: thank you. up for debate.
Me: because you are managing expectations. even if those expectations are less that satisfactory. and you have a husband. her name is Kimberly.
GK: she's my queen. she's currently farting in my lap. can you smell it?
in a way, I suppose I can.
Me: I feel like this is a good place to end. Thank you for sharing all of this with me! Now we can go back to our regularly scheduled G-Chat, which is mostly about smiting enemies.
GK: ❤ ❤ thank you!!!!!